Last time I checked it costs alot less to run a poker table then it does a horse track 15 percent is more then fair you people are forgetting that the race track needs to pay it's horsepeople purse money, track maintance crew, judges, hydro, tellers, betting slips(paper and ink) and the list goes on and on of course poker would have a lower take out rate all you need is a deck of cards and one person to pay opposed to the hundreds it takes to race a card. And second don't say football and basketball can opperate a larger operation with incredibaly low takeouts unless you want to pay hundreds before you are allowed to get in the track facility to place your bet. And I find it very odd that someone would be on here if they haven't placed a bet in two years seems to me that you are still interested in the racing industry, the fact is in my oppinion horse racing by any gait is the most entertaining thing you can bet on and no matter what the takeout rate is the majority of people would be down by years end.

The bottom line is we {The Posters)care about horse racing and part of that is the gambling aspect. Fans and Horse people love the racing, speed, excitement etc. However, The bigger gamblers that some day again will dictate if racing survives need to see they are receiving a fair shake for their betting buck.

I would propose that most marketing projects involve how many people do you bring in and retain long enough to make the sale. My question is and it will be my last if not posted, would it not make sense if you dropped the takeout precentage that gamblers would have more money to wager from day to day?

My reasoning, You have fuller Grandstands percieving more excitement, people attract more people ,and it stands to reason if the people are there longer they have to eat , drink etc. The Gamblers will not take the money and run so to speak. If there is a sense of fairness for Gamblers they will be back. ie look at Vegas.

This will only work with noticeable reductions in takeout not fake gimmicks. I am not trying to offend poor marketing practices of the past but to generate new ideas.

Mr.Brunet,

Your math is spot on. This has been part of my argument for the last several years. The wager is in a free fall in both breeds and there is one thing and one thing only that has a chance to reverse it and that is reduced takeout. People don't think the day will come where tracks like weg will see the handle at $500.000 or a lot less per card but at the current takeout rates that day is coming. At one time in the 70's and 80's if people would have said that blue bonnets would disappear in 20 years time people would have laughed and called you a fool for saying something so silly. The b tracks thru out the maritimes there wager is a joke, pools of $20. or less in many cases.

B tracks in ontario are a fraction of what they used to be. The big m and weg wager down about 40 to 50% from there glory days. If the wager continues to plummet it will be the perfect excuse for governments to take away the slot revenue, who will care, certainly not the public at large, they don't care now. To stay relevant they have to reverse the declining wager and yes 10% of 1.5 million at weg is an awful lot better then 20% of $200.000 or closure. The industry better sharpen up in a hurry but it seems they continue to ignore the message there customers are sending them.

Exchange Wagering has been around for 15 years and we still havent got any nearer to implementing that,never mind going back to 1950.

No worries of take out there just match the wagers and go ....and if your horse breaks .... here have another go while the race is in running. Oh and you got 10/1 but it was backed down to even money on the tote guess what your still getting 10/1.

What ... you want to double your horse with the Red Wings to win the Stanley Cup youre on ....how civilised is that. Oh and I can bet on my horse to lose but have to stand the liability if it wins ........ hedge yer bets folks and get value for money let me know if you want more education.

he way of the future my friends and the immediate past.

Mr.Bates,

When you said and i quote( if you cannot listen to the customers that you already have, how will you retain any new customers) truer words were never spoken. There current customer base has soundly rejected the excessive takeout rates that the race game continues to charge and have moved on to other forms of gambling with fairer house takes. It is hard to believe that they think at the current takeout rates that they have any chance of competing for the next generation of gamblers who have been brought up and introduced to so many other low vig options. The race games new advertising campaign should be why play poker or sports, not much of a challenge there come see how you make out playing the races and betting into a 20 to 30% house hold.

Plainridge raceway has taken a big step in the right direction and the track management team deserves some credit. It is possible that lowering the takeout to 15% in every pool is all they can by law i don't know but for me it is not enough. I have not played a race in approx 2 years and will never again bet a single race unless i can bet a track that has a 10% or lower takeout rate in every pool. There is all kinds of other people besides me that feel the same way. You want our business then show us you are ready to compete with the other forms of gambling that we have moved on to.

Are the racetrack operator's reading these comments? Is the ORC, or CPMA? nothing to do with the product, nothing to do with the purse level, nothing to do with the retoric arount cheating.

LOWER THE TAKEOUTS is what the gamblers are telling you and have been for years!

If you cannot listen to the customers that you already have, how will you retain any new customers?

I have suggested in the past a tiered approach to the takeout, because when you have a total handle on the card lower than the purse for one race on the card, the takeout is not contributing anything to your operation, not even paying to keep the lights on.

All great comments in my view and let me add another example. The Las Vegas Sports Books took in $100,000,000. on the last Super Bowl. They returned $199,125,000. to winning bettors. That is a "vigorish" or takeout of just more than 3/4%. If a racetrack/tracks had that handle they would takeout a minimum of $20,000.000. assuming a 20% takeout. Also that does not even take into account the freebies/giveaways which Las Vegas is well know for. It also does not take into account the enjoyment of their product vs the empty stands in Racing which suggests little enjoyment of the Racing Product. I am begining to think that perhaps Mr. Carter, Mr.Riga, Mr. Biever, Mr. Bechtel, Mr. Karper, and the countless others who have suggested a 5% takeout would revive the Racing Industry are being overly optimistic and even that won't work!!

Don Patrick
While I agree with Joe that the horse racing takeout or "rake" needs to be lowered, I think his betting sports with his martingale system (keep doubling your bet) seldom works. It requires an enormous bankroll. As far as betting horses in such a fashion, you pretty much need to be betting off-shore.

Sports betting has a max take of 10%. Good books often times only take 5%. The 23% that WEG takes on Pick 4 wagers, has driven people I know away from their product. At least the Meadowlands only takes 15% on Pick 4 bets. I can live with that.

I used to go to the track live, 5 days a week. There is less and less incentive to do so these days. Things such as keeping the snack bar closed on the third floor at Woodbine, no customer service, and high takeout have driven me away. I can watch at home or the teletheater (can't get a program after 8pm). If I want to bet $500 or $1000, I can do so offshore without feeling like I'm down 23% before the race even starts.

Anyone with half a brain knows there is a much better chance of winning at sports betting then horse racing. Here is a perfect example. As stated in a previous comment I made I lost $6000 on horse racing this week end. Now I didn't lose it all at once. Let's say for simplicity sake I bet $200 on a horse. He loses. Now I need to bet another $200 on at least a 1-1 shot to break even.So I do that and he loses. Now I need to bet $400 on a 1-1 shot to break even, or $200 on a 2-1 shot, or $100 on a 4-1 shot. As the bet gets lower the odds of winning of course become a little more difficult. Another problem is that if I find a great 1-1 shot at Flamboro to bet and I bet $400 he goes 1-9 so there is no value. So I can keep repeating this scneario until I am down say $4000. Now you either need a better play then 1-1 or you need to put $4000 on a 1-1 which would probably knock the odds down to 3-5 and then you need to hope you even get an effort.
Now if I bet on sports and I lose $200 on a game, I can put $200 on another game. If that loses I can put $400 on another game. If I am down $2000 I can put $2000 on another game without affecting my odds and winnings. My chances of betting the right team are always 50% since there are only two teams ever playing (much better odds then in horse racing where you bet one horse and thenre are at least another 9 trying to beat you). Therefore in sports I can keep doubling my bet until I eventually hit whcih chances are sooner or later you will. Now I know I will have to pay some juice but even if I end up paying $1000 in jucie I can keep repeating the same process until I hit even earlier.
My point is your chances are a lot better. Now if I can bet a horse who looks as good as a 1-1 shot but actually goes off at 2-1 or 5-2 because of a reduced take-out that might actually be some incentive for me. The current model is no incentive whatsoever.

Until Pocono Downs works to lower the takeout rate on wagers, the marketing efforts of which they proudly speak, will be useless. With a 35 % takeout on trifectas (temporarily reduced last Fall as the Breeders Crown approached), their commitment to racing must be disparaged, not lauded.

Another article quoting race track operators filling the air with the concept of horse racing is not as popular because no one bets on it. Its really unfortunate these people are portrayed as being knowledgable about gambling products when the best idea they have is to cross market younger people so they can have the pleasure of losing money just like gramps does. I shouldnt expect much considering it took me 15 minutes to realize when I was playing poker in the Pocono downs poker room that the take going off the tables was close to twice I had seen as most other casinos in places like Vegas.I dont know if it a conspiracy by racetrack owners or a total lack of knowledge about the dirty little secret that the takeout on horse racing is uncompetetive. For everybody who thinks I am nuts let me give you a new way to look at the statistic that standardbred canada publishes every day on their home page. The statistic that they highlight is that year to date 90 million dollars has been bet on harness racing in Canada this year so far and we wish it was higher. Another way to look at it is over 19 million dollars has been lost by betttors on harness racing this year and we wish it was higher. I am fully aware that their will always be a net loss on any gambling product and that you need to create a level of entertainment to attract the casual bettor to the track but is equally important to not make the net loss so large that their is zero incentive for anyone to put the effort into trying to overcome the odds. I feel I have a better chance of seeing the Maple Leafs win a Stanley cup then finding a gambler who has made money consistantly betting on horses in the last 5 years. One of the reasons for the mass appeal of poker is that their are a large number of pros who make a liiving from gambling on poker despite the fact it also has a net loss as a gambling product. Sorry for the Leaf comment but I couldnt resist.

John, Rick give up. We have been saying this over and over again and yet the people who run horse racing either aren't listening,don't understand, don't care to understand, or all of the above. It's a lost cause and we gamblers are just wasting our time and breath while the tracks try to attract " a new generation" of gamblers in ways that will never work.

This article here just highlights how out of touch the powers to be are in the racing industry. Can you imagine anyone thinking that they are going to portray the racetrack as a cool hip place for the younger demographic to go with friends. The races need to attract gamblers, i do not want cool or hip, and that won't attract the next generation of gamblers either. What will is a fair and competitive takeout rate, 10% or less in every pool. Lower the takeout so it is competitive with other forms of gambling and let gamblers at least believe they have a fighting chance of winning and gamblers such as myself will come back thru the doors and it will allow you to compete for the business of this younger generation of gamblers you want to attract. To gamblers the racetrack is all about gambling and who wants to gamble into 20 to 30% takeout rates where you have virtually no shot, wake up!!!

There is a sad message in this story. The quality of the product has minimal, if any, effect on attendance and wagering.

Pocono, Chester and Yonkers have first class racing and top drivers, but on my visits, I have found the tarmac, the stands and the restaurant relatively empty while the slot/vlt rooms were very busy.

The long-term solution will require takeout rates at about 5%. Since the racetrack and horsemen's purses are primarily dependent on other revenue sources, the negative effect will be minimized.