Mr.Irving,

Your comment is pretty much bang on. The game needs to market itself to gamblers because at the end of the day horse racing is all about gambling but they can't market themselves to gamblers with there current takeout rates. It is not possible, it would just be a waste of there time and money. Young people know about winning poker players and it doesn't have to be the Phil Ivey's of the world. There is all kinds of winning poker players in pretty much every community. I know plenty of them but try and find a winning horse player, you can't. I am not saying they are not out there but they are next to impossible to find and the reason for that is the track takeout is to high. Stop and think about it, you have to be 20 to 25% better then everyone around you just to break even and to make money you need to be 30 to 40% better then everyone around you. That is a tall task, next to impossible to most. How do you market that to the next generation of gamblers, the answer is real easy, you can't.

Horse racing is all about trying to make MONEY.Gambling.Most people don't go to the track to watch,like they do nhl/mlb/etc.MONEEEEY.

Horse racing will never attract the younger generation for one simple reason!The game lacks a superstar!That's right a SUPERSTAR.Your probably saying "we have lots of them".I am not talking driver/jockey/trainer,i am talking a "handicapping superstar".Someone that inspires others to emulate them.In order for ANY sport to prosper it has to have a superstar.Remember,people don't go to the track to cheer on the horses/drivers like they do hockey/baseball/basketball/etc.They go to the track to bet their hard earned money to make MONEY.

You people are marketing to the wrong people.You don't want the fan,you want the GAMBLER.LOL

Anthony,

Thank you for responding. You do seem to be one of the few horse people that is not sitting back and saying it is everybody else's problem to fix not mine. You seem to want to play an active role in the discussion and are willing to admit the race game has image problems along with other issues such as takeout. It would be nice to see more horse people speak out and join in on the conversation on both sides of the border. It would also be nice to hear some management teams from various racetracks join in on the conversation and at least say they are listening. That they understand the issue's facing the industry. Jeff Gural spoke out here several years ago on a radio interview with trot canada and he said that race tracks needed to start competing with other forms of gambling by reducing takeout to 10% or less but i have yet to hear another single person from a track management team admit that takeout was an issue. There is nothing i would like better then playing the races once again but i cannot do it until the race game gets there act together. When that happens i will be back the next day and there is many others that feel the same way. The just want a fair game.

Will
your suggestion totally contradicts itself. You mention that you want a sustainable plan. Explain to me please how bringing people to the track to watch concerts and engage in contests and get free food while they are getting hosed at the windows is a plan that will keep the gamblers coming back? Your suggestion simply glosses over the real issues. It is like the tracks trying to pull the wool over the head of it's most vital asset, the gambler.
A long time ago the tracks had great attendance and a very good handle. That all changed when the slots came in, proline came in etc etc. The gamblers slowly started to leave. Why do you suppose that happened. Is it because they got better entertainment for money?
At the end of the day tracks need to collect revenue. They can do this in a number of ways but the main way they will need to do this is to attract and retain a strong gambling base.
Gamblers gamble for one reason. To experience the thrill of beating the odds while collecting a handsome return for doing so.
When the opportunity for this presents itself in other ways (ie poker, slots, sports betting) most gamblers will wager on bets where they get the biggest bang for their buck. Currently (and for a variety of reasons) that is not horse racing. You can market something all you want but at the end of the day the number of people at the track does not necessarily correlate to the number of dollars wagered. I know of many corporate sponsored events that take place at the track. For the most part these people enjoy the food and the company but bet very few dollars and also are very unlikely to return on their own.
It takes a special kind of person to be a horse wagering fan. Yes I agree that getting all the exposure possible is helpful in bringing people to the track at least initially. But the true question that needs to be answered is how do you get them to come back and more importantly how do you get them to come back to bet.
You seem dismissive of Mr Carter's argument is supposrted by many long time gamblers myself included.
We are not dismissing your argument by the way. But what we are saying is that while your plan may have some merit andmay help bring people to the track at least initially it does not address the true issue that caused the fan base to dwindle in the first place.
Mr. Carter is absolutley correct when he says the horsepeople nor the tracks did absolutley nothing to keep the fans coming as they were rolling in the slots money. They seemed to take the attitude that it would last forever. I think on thispoint we all agree.I know for myself I have very often said that if the government ever took the slots away from racing the tracks would be broke. It was very easy to predict this because on any given night the grandstands were empty.
I don't claim to have the 100% perfect answer that will restor racing. I don't know that anyone has.We can all only give our opinions on what we percieve to be the problems and offer possible solutions.
I commend you and all the others on here who feel strongly enough about racing to take the time to do research and share their opinions and feedback.
I do beleive in my humble opinion that the solution lies somewhere in a combination of what you suggest which is to market the sport agressively which certainly cannot hurt but in combination with a revised takeout and better racing that will offer much better value to people who are willing to bet then is currently offered.

You know the shame of it all is, we make not be having this conversation now if the race game and all involved got there act together during the good times, the slot years. With the exception of the racing development and sustainability plan put forth by standardbred canada which no one supported, not the racetracks or horse men and women came forth with a single idea to address the declining attendance or falling handle. They could not see past today, they could not see the forest for the trees. Both parties foolishly thought the slot revenue would last forever and they wanted it all. The hell with everyone else. They never said what happened in quebec could happen to us. They didn't care about fan support or where the gamblers were going, no all they cared about was themselves. They couldn't see the big picture. Not a single one of them cared about the customer/gambler. The expressed no concerns when it come to takeout or anything else that might have mattered to there gambling base.

Now they are in trouble but wait a minute our friends south of the border seem to be sailing along but for how long. They are repeating the same mistakes that the ontario tracks and horse men and women did. The tracks and horse people there want it all to. The hell with the gambling base, we don't need you we have slot revenue. I have not seen a single plan by anyone, not by the tracks, not by the horse people or not even by the USTA. No once again they can't see the forest for the trees. Horse men and women may mistakenly believe that it is not there responsibility but it is your income, it is your future is it not worth speaking up for. It is high time this industry starts to recognize the importance of the customer/gambler, if not now when. Today's gambler demands fair value.

I was going to write another response to further emphasize my opinion. But Mr. Carter has made the argument so well that I don't know how much more I or anyone else can say. Those of us who have been at this a long time have our ideas of what the issues are. We can all agree to disagree but one this is for sure. The sport has been in a rapid downward spiral and may be on it's last legs.
It is my humble opinion that horse racing unlike many other sports exisits for one and only one reason and that reason is for gambling. If we are going to be honest let's call it what it is. No-oe (or hardly no-one) goes to the races to simply be a spectator, at least not on a regular basis.
Gamblers are the lifeblood of this industry and the industry should do all it can to bring gamblers to the track. I agree with Mr Carter that the tracks need both the big and small bettors and that no gambler who knows he is getting hosed will continually support that. They will simply get up and leave and that is exactly what has happened here.
I, along with Mr. Carter and Mr Robinski and many others I'm sure, have said this continually and I see no reason for us to keep repeating ourselves. By all accounts we are what you would describe as fairly big players and we have had enough. I will end with a line my brother used to say which was that racing has gotten so bad you might as well walk into the track and just hand over the money you have in your wallet and leave. At least you'll save yourself the aggravation of watching lousy racing and consistantly bad payouts. Another thing we used to say was we caught the win 4. I wonder how much we will owe the track.
I think everyone understands what we are saying.

I have read and participated on this forum for a long time now and i have seen posters such as Mr.Robinski, Mr.Riga and Mr.Jones that consistently show me that they understand what high takeout has done to the race game. In other words they get it. If you go back to the 60's,70's and 80's takeout really didn't matter because if you wanted to gamble you more or less had to put up with it but times have changed and for what ever reason Mr.Yamakva cannot accept this. He still thinks the tracks can get away with excessive takeouts but they can't no matter how much he wants to believe it.

I can only assume Mr.Yamakava that you are a relatively small player and there is nothing a matter with that. The game needs both small players and big players, the same as all forms of gambling do. The reason i say you must be a small player is no big player could possibly be in favor of high takeouts the way you are. You suggest over and over again that takeout is not an issue and yes there are some small casual bettors that feel this way but the game needs hard core gamblers to get back on track and they do care. By your line of thinking i would suggest to all race tracks to just simply double your take out rates right across the board. Gamblers are so dumb and uneducated they won't even notice and if they do notice they probably won't care at least according to Mr.Yamakava. Your problems will be solved overnight with all that extra money you will be taking in. If someone complains just have a driver or a trainer sign an autograph for them and that will surely quiet then down.

Mr Riga is again spot on. I have 385 employees some of which I treat to Vegas 4 day weekend fun. They want nothing to do with wagering on horses. They know the math!! Why would they wager on something that costs 400 to 1000 percent more when they have multiple other options!!

Will
once again you are off the mark and I am really starting to beleive as Mr Carter points out that you simply don't u nderstand a true gamblers way of thinking.
First off Santa Anita and Del Mar are NOWEHRE NEAR FINE. I would suggest you read a few newspapers regarding those tracks for a totally different perspective then yours. They can barely fill five horse fields most days.
Secondly there is an article by a respected horse racing reporter on ESPN today speaking to the fact that Saratoga's handle and attendance was down again this year. The reason given for the decline is exactly the reason Mr. Carter keeps emphasizing and you keep ignoring, which is that gamblers have caught on to the fact that winning at the track is becoming an elusive proposition. As for your point about the curlers I did not miss your point. Even if a few curlers make a small amount of additional income from ads it is not nearly significant enough to sustain curling or their own livlihoods. Sure maybe a few of the top dirvers or jockeys would be able to make additional income from self promotion. What does that do for the 60000 or so people who make their living from the sport in capacities much less visible or lucrative then the drivers. The irony to your point is that the very people who can make additional income from exposure are most likely the ones who need it the least. I am sure that guys like Jody Jamieson, Randy Waples etc. etc are doing just fine. How is the track blacksmith doing? Also for the record racing has been on TV (on and off) for a very long time. I used to watch all the big stake races on CBC back in the 70's and 80s. Recently we have had BetNight Live and before that other shows. Drivers, trainers, owners, jockeys, were all interviewed.Contests, free betting vouchers among other things were offered. All this exposure did nothing to increase attendance or handle and the show was cancelled. You mentioned that pro line is more popular then horse racing. That may be so but what is the real reason for that. The answer is simple. It's not because it's marketing. Its because people who play proline a) like betting on team sports and this is th eonly way of doing it without having to opne an offshore account and b) because it's very accessble (just walk into any store) and c) because the sport they offer to bet on are very popular, Having said all that why don't you talk to people who wager BIG money on proline and hear what they have to say. They will tell you how proline is such a big sham because it is very tough to make money on proline due to the ridiculous odss the house gives. You need to bet a six team parlay to actually make any money. That alludes directly to Mr. Carters point about take out.
I guarantee you if the province ever allowed single team wagering on sports pro line would go broke.Again I am not saying some of your ideas have no merit. But your ideas do not solve the real issues and reasons why horse racing does not attract fans and it has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with winning money.

Mr Carter and many many other horseplayers (myself included) have been sounding the warning bell for years.

*Racing has too high a takeout and this needs to change
*The driver and jockey have to stop all the questionable driving and drive every race to win. Just driving to pick up a cheques will not cut it.
* This buddy buddy system (especially in harness racing) has to go.
* Cheaters of any kind need to be eliminated from the game...permanently

These are the main issues racing needs to address if it wants to actually keep it's current fans and hopefully attract new ones.

Exposure alone will not solve the problems.

One more point, the house take on slot machines is much less then the house take on a horse race. In vegas the average machine has a house rake of about 5% and there are usually a row of machines in every casino that has a take out of as little as 1 or 2%. The reason the casinos can live with a small house hold on slots is because they know people will sit and play them for hours so eventually they end up with the money. The sheer volume of play allows the casino to win.

The people who play slots are a different breed of gambler, the people who want to think a bit, plays the races, poker, blackjack which has an approx 1 house edge if you play properly or they wager on sports. The race game or poker or sports is not likely to attract slot players but the race game can get back people who left who are now playing poker or betting on sports if they offer fair odds. Even if they don't get them back exclusively they are many people who would for example play both sports and racing or poker and racing. The new generation of gamblers who aren't slot p[layers who want to play a game where they have to think a bit, racing will always be the last option if the race game does not get somewhat competitive with sports and poker. You can fool yourself all you want but house take matters, winning matters, going home with money in your pocket does matter to people. If they keep getting them emptied eventually they quit or find another form of gambling.

Will... We are the entertainers in your nightclub. The entertainers don't do the promoting.

Mr.Yamakva,

You have plenty of ideas how to get non gamblers there looking for a free hot dog but i have yet to hear a single idea from you that will attract gamblers and retain them. Times have changed and with the exception of special events the grandstands are never going to be full again. Those days are history. The new meadowlands is a fraction of the size of the old building because crowds no longer show up like they did 30 years ago. This industry needs to attract gamblers and retain them wether they go to the track or do it from there living room. I do all my sports betting right from the comfort of my living room. I do not need to fly to new york to watch the yankees play to bet on them nor do i need to go to a racetrack to watch a race or bet on a race if i was playing the races.

I am not sure what to say to you, if you think the race game can attract and retain gamblers with there current takeout rates and other issues then you really have no understanding of the mind set of today's gamblers. What you suggest is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
Attracting young people to the track assuming you could and turning then into gamblers with the current takeout rates will have an unhappy ending because all that is going to happen is there will be a whole new group of track players that catch on much quicker then our generation did and walk away to fairer forms of gambling. The race game needs to get there house in order and then and only then do a massive marketing campaign to show the game has modernized itself. They have no other chance of attracting gamblers and retaining them without doing this first.

Mr.Yamakva,

You continue to mistakenly believe that house take does not matter to those who play poker or bet on sports and nothing could be further then the truth. You say rake doesn't matter. Single game sports betting has a house hold of 5%. You wager $110. to win $100 but the wager is a 50/50 proposition, so therefore you will win half the time on average so the takeout is 5%. What would happen if sports betting instead of being $110. to win $100. raised the rake to $140. to win $100 which would be a 20% household, which would be more in line with horse racing. I would tell you what would happen, sports betters would quit left, right and center because they would quickly realize the game is completely unfair and they have no shot of beating it.

What would happen if poker rooms increased the rake by 4 or 5 times so it was the same household as race tracks charge. Pretty soon the house would have all the money and the players pockets would be empty. People aren't going to be imitating Phil Ivey because there would be darn few left at the tables. They would either be broke or they would quit because the game would now be seen as unfair. With all due respect you must believe that every one who gambles is totally clueless, people are not nearly as dumb as you obviously believe they are. The reason the race game has lost so many gamblers is because people have caught on that there is better options out there. The race game needs to change this image.

Will
with all due respect I think you are way off the mark if you think exposure is what will fix the problem of getting fanc (actually gamblers) to the track. You mention california. Well California's horse racing is in much worse shape then ours. Santa Anita, Hollywood and Del mark which at one time were all very good tracks can barely fill a card anymore. In fact Del Mar is closing it's doors for good after this year. If you were referring to Golden gate or santa Rosa or Zia Park when you said Claifornia, well you can have those tracks. They are not tracks any serious gambler would wager on.
The Meadowlands while it admittedly did have a great meet even Mr. Gural has conceded that they need to attract much more gamblers or put back slots in order to survive.
Also you are way off if you really believe that harness drivers or jockeys (with all due respect to them) can ever market themselves to the level of being anywhere near as popular as NBA, NFL or MLB players. That will never happen I don't care how much exposure they get. You also cite curling. Wll for the record most curlers have a primary job and do not live off their curling winnings. They wold be destitute if they relied on that and curlers are nowhere near as popular as you may think. Ask the average person if they can name you the top 10 curlers in this country and see if they can.
Mr. Carter has accurately pointed out what is wrong with the industry and I am inclined to agree. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying your ideas have no merit. I am simply saying that until you adress the primary problems with racing any exposure they get will not go anywhere near far enough to get people in the doors.
Yes as a kid I enjoyed meeting Sandy Hawley and Rbin platts and Ron Waples an Doug brown etc etc. But all that was not enough to keep me going. It was the possiblity of winning that kep me going and when racing no longer provided what I consider to be a reasonable shot for my dollars I took my ball and went home so to speak.
Whether anyone likes to admit it or not racing is aboyt gambling. Plaon and simple. And most gamblers I know will gamble on where tehy get the most bang for their buck. Racing lost that a long time ago while they had their blinkers on and is now seeing the results.

Here is some things that i think needs to happen if the race game is going to have any chance of re-building there gambling base.

1. A competitive takeout rate of 10% or less in all pools.

2. Full competitive fields

3. harsher penalties for trainers who use illegal drugs.

4. Fine drivers for not filling holes.

5. re-visit what constitutes a fair start

6. post time means post time

7. The industry needs 2 or 3 big league tracks. Tracks like the big M and weg who have the highest handles should have the best horses but they don't. Having several tracks with high handles plus full competitive fields combined with a fair take out rate is what is needed to help turn this industry around. The whales need a place to play.

Heres a hypathetical reinvention of harness racing in Ontario copying the Japan model. The model they use is one that ensures the public that the integrity of racing is at its highest, which in turn maximizes a handle that dwarfs any racing jurisdiction in the world.

Would Ontario ever adopt a program similiar?

Would they agree to have 2 training centers in Ontario governed and run by Ontario Racing, where all participants would have to be housed and race from.

http://japanracing.jp/en/jpn-racing/jra/center.html

Where all participants must order supplies such as feed, linaments, bedding and supplements from a list provided to them from Ontario Racing.

http://japanracing.jp/_pdf/information/horsemens-information/list-of-fe…

Would they agree to have only vets licenced and employed by Ontario Racing be able to do work on all the horses and supply records of their work to Ontario Racing, who in turn would publish it, to the betting public.

http://japanracing.jp/en/information/jra-rules/veterinary.html

Would stables be willing to stable at a place with 24 hour security and video that watches all barn activities?

Would Ontario Racing ever adopt a corporate structure similiar to this?

http://japanracing.jp/en/jpn-racing/jra/pdf/chart.pdf

You may sit here and laugh at all of this but the numbers do not lie

http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2012/s01.html

Will

I don 't argue the fact that exposure is vital to the game. However I think it is unfair to compare drivers and jockeys to other athletes. Most NBA, NFL, NHL ,MBL athletes have teams of people working for them who set up and arrange all the details for the athlete to get exposure. The athlete just basically shows up.
You don't believe for a minute that Sidney Crosby calls Alex Ovechkin, who calls Steve Stamkos and together they say hey let's see how we can bring publicity to hockey do you? They have tons of people set these events all up. Horsemen and women don't have this luxury so that is not a fair argument.
I also think you miss one very important detail when you talk about attracting new blood to the game. Most of us understand that the game requires new blood. However if you talk to most of us "oltimers" I would bet you that most of us were introduced to the game by a father, an uncle, a friend etc. who taook us to the track with them every now and again. The more we went the more we liked it until eventually we were old enough to go on our own. However the new generation will not get this because us oldtimers stopped going and we aren't introducing any new blood to the game. Online betting only exasperates this because people now bet from home and nobody goes to the track.
Let me tell you a story. I work for a large investment firm downtown. Ten years ago due to the knowledge people had of my involement with racing I was asked to set up a company night at Woodbine Racetrack. I did that and one night off we went about fifty of us to the races. We had dinner at the buffet, we drank we even had our picture taken with the winning horse. Everyone had a nice time. Now fast forward to last year. We had a meeting to decide on a company event we would like to sponsor. There wre about 40 of us sitting in the boardroom and it came down to two suggestions. Another night at the races or a golf charity game. Guess what the epople chose. Golf. It won in a landslide. I was the only one who voted for the races. When asked what factored in the decision most people said they chose golf because a) they found the races boring (it was harness racing for the record) and b) they didn't want to lose money again.
So there you have it. A group of casual bettors who were totally turned off on racing after one visit. My point it this. The only way to attract new blood is for the love of the game to be passed on by the old. This stopped happening because the earlier generations stopped going for the reasons Imentioned in my earlier post and were seconded by the likes of Mr. Carter, Mr. Robinsky and Mr. Brunet.
Until you fix those issues racing will simply cease to exist.

Mr.Yamakva,

Yes it is possible to get many gamblers back who left but they can't do it with there current broken, outdated business model. The worst thing this industry can do is go all out to attract new gamblers without addressing the serious issue of track takeout first. If you attract new gamblers with the current takeout rates you are only going to end up losing them to other forms of gambling, you will have no chance of retaining them long term.

The industry needs to address a lot of issues especially track takeout and until they do this there is no point in trying to attract new people to the race game because they are sooner or later going to get fed up with things and leave. This is the point you continue to miss, when we were young we had no choices if you wanted to gamble it was either races or bingo. There was no internet, or sports forums to educate people about the effects of takeouts so we didn't know better, we blindly played in to take outs of 15 to 35% The young gamblers of today have choices and they will not put up with it.

I have been on sports forums and most often when the subject of horse racing gets brought up it is made fun of because of the high house rakes. Who do you think reads these boards. For the most part it is young people and they get a very negative view of the race game. The race game needs to change this and the only way to do it is to get more competitive by reducing takeout. You continue to say the race game cannot attract sports betters or poker players. Well why can't they, if they compete for business. Poker and sports were certainly able to take away lots of race players by providing fairer game. This is a competitive world, if you don't compete for business you will not survive. The race game needs to understand this.

Mr Carter as usual is exactly right. I would like to add along with the unconscionably high takeout, the fair(unfair start pole), and drug suspensions have poisoned Harness racing's Well!

Toronto, with a population of 2.79 million people (5.5 million in the GTA - Greater Toronto Area)is a great breeding ground for new fans. However I don't agree that the product at Woodbine is top shelf or is instrumental in attracting new fans. The product is too far to see and can only be seen on a t.v. and forget about hearing anything. The venue much too large and is difficult to get from one place to another and gives the impression that it is deserted. I think for the good of racing Woodbine should not be hosting harness racing. I think OMAFRA have this right.
In regards to racing at Woodbine or Mohawk they should take a page from Mr. Gural and insist to the judges that drivers will be fined for opening and giving holes to other drivers. The industry does have a problem with perception and giving holes creates a whole lot more. So the buddy-buddy system needs to stop at WEG. These measures will insure that racing will be just as exciting as The Meadowlands.
Harness racing is the only breed that races 12 months a year in Ontario and winter racing is expensive not only for horseman but also for the track owners. The winter months are a good time to cut down to only a few tracks and let the demand get pent up for a change. These are a few changes that will help, but please not Will Yamakva, that they are Changes that are to be done by Weg and the ORC NOT the horseman.

Will
While I do agree with some of your comments I totally disagree with your remarks to Mr. Carter. In fact he is bang on with his comments. Like Mr. Carter I have been a part of this game for a very long time as has my brother. We started out as fans, then became owners and now back to gamblers.For the record (and I only say this because it is relevant to my opinion) I am not a casual bettor and I don't believe the casual bettor is what is gong to save this game. Like Mr. Carter I could care a less about getting a free hot dog or coke. I can certainly buy my own thank you very much. Anyone who cannot purchase their own hot dog or coke should not be at a racetrack. Whether we choose to believe it or not horse racing always has and always will be about gambling. And for that matter so is the NFL. Take out all the bookies, remove it from Vegas and the NFL will lose at least half it's audience. If horse racing wants to survivie it needs to win back the gamblers, pure and simple. I stopped gambling on WEG racing for a long time now for the many reasons that are constantly mentioned on this site. The take out is brutal, the driving is inconsistent at best, and let's be hones tthere are some people who are doing some very shady things. I will refer to the recent ruling by the ORC as an example.

Like you Will, I agree that racing at small tracks, from a gamblers perspective is totally useless. I am not a 42 bettor and therefore have zero interest in betting little half miler b tracks where the odds change from 10-1 to 3-5 on a single bet.
As far as harness racing goes I choose to bet only the Meadowlands. The reason is simple. Every race is competitive and the drivers go hard. An ealrier post attributed this to the shortened schedule. That is totally incorrect. I have been betting the Meadowlands for over 10 years for this very reason and they had a much longer schedule until recently.

I don't know that racing will ever be able to survive solely with revenue from the betting handle. The gambling landscape has changed completely and there are far many more options to gamblers today then were available a long time ago.
I don't believe anything the horsemen can do will necessarily change that to make a significant impact. Would it be nice to receive a free hot dog and meet a driver or two. Sure. But that won't be enough to entice people into going.
It may well be that what will be required is a partnership with the government whereby racing can share in some of the revenues from other forms of gaming and this can be tiered to the handle.

I do beleive that any agreement should be structured this way because as a government I would not be invovled in sharing revenues with a sport that really only serves itself and has a dwindling fan base.
The two must be connected somehow.

No matter what, at the end of the day the product is what is going to determine the future of the sport. And quite frankly if racing really wanted to be honest with tself they should realize how many true gamblers don't care anymore because the product is sub standard despite what we are being told.
I have heard so many people say they quit betting on WEG harness racing because of the lack of flow to the racing, the questionable drives,the trainers who cheat etc etc.

I beleive that any solution absolutley MUST address the issues I mentioned above. Not doing so will simply result in the ultimate demise of the game no matter what else is done.

Will

most trainers and drivers would be more than willing to participate in crowd interaction...but they have to be organized ..hence the racetracks departments a prime example of this is Grand River if only other tracks looked at what they do on a weekly basis , but some racetracks think they are above these kind of ideas.
do you think these football and golf and basketball players sit around after a game and decide what their next marketing scheme will be ?
Does the Rogers Centre just sit back and let the athletes make a marketing plan and then implement it right down to who goes on bill boards ?
Does the Air Canada centre go to a group and say well what are you guys gonna do to promote your show and just let us know when you need to get into the building to prepare your posters and such.

I think you really don't understand what it takes to prepare OUR ATHLETES
for competition and keep them fit.
Horsemen would love the public to be able to see what it takes to race one, for years at Greenwood that was the case but from one extreme to another just look at where the woodbine paddock is located ? its not even practical for owners.
As for deflecting blame not at all we have fulfilled our part in the partnership by having horses fit and ready to race.

I put the blame directly on the racetracks many that have just focused on the slots and not the racing . Easy money for them, their paycheques remain the same whether they promote racing or not, and after they have decimated the industry they will move on to other ventures.

and Will fyi....colours are not to be worn in public areas only in special cases...autographs etc.

Mr.Yamakva,

You are dead wrong, you may not be going anywhere but i already have. I walked away from the game of my choice which was races approx 4 years ago. The reason to play other low vig games that give you a much better bang for the buck and it has nothing to do with the simplicity of the game. You might wonder why i am still around a site like this and although i no longer play the game i still enjoy watching young horses race and just keeping up on things and for the record i used to be a very, very, big player. I naively keep hoping the race game will get there act together and address the number one issue that is killing any chance of them re building there gambling base and that is excessive track takeout. If they do that i will be back tomorrow but no amount of free hot dogs or autographs will get me back because it is meaningless to big gamblers.

For you to say this is not the single most important issue facing the industry when it comes to re building the gambling base tells me that you know little or nothing about the mind set of people who pound the money thru the windows. I know all kinds of people playing poker and sports betting that used to be big players at the ponies and i have asked many of them, why sports or poker and not the races and not one of them mention the simplicity of the game but all say they get a much better bang for there buck.

The high takeouts have chased away many horse players especially the big ones, so if the race game cannot get the so call hardened players to accept the take out how are they going to get the young gamblers to accept it. The answer is really easy, they can't and there track record proves it. I have never heard a single person who has walked away from the race game saying the reason they left is because they weren't getting free hot dogs or pop or never met the drivers or trainers. I didn't care about that and the big gamblers, the whales if you will don't care about it either. The game needs to attract hard core gamblers not the casual fan who has 10 bucks in there pocket looking for a free hot dog.

You also keep going on and on about trying to make the drivers and trainers superstars outside of the sport. It is just not going to happen. Even back in the hay day of the sport, the 60's and 70's when the grandstands were full and the sport got all kinds of media attention in the sports pages and so on, they were not known to the main stream public and never will be. People within the industry know who they are and respect there talents but like it or not it ends there.

Right onNancy great point

Will is exactly right!!!!

THE GAME MUST CHANGE. Mr. Macdonald, I've been involve with the Industry for 40 years. When you tell Will that the driver's are involve with the fan shows that you do not understand what the game needs, and now you want to represent the horsemen.... I, as an owner and fan, have been begging the tracks to open their paddock doors to the crowds for years. I still remember old Blue Bonnets used to open their doors and the place was packed!!! The younger crowds would come and enjoy themselves.

Last week I was at Saratoga to go see the runners and the place was packed. The young crowds were brigning their coolers and lunches and the music was playing....it made for a beautiful and fun day. In Ontario if you bring a coffee they will ask you to drink it before you get in....WE NEED NEW BLOOD TO RUN THE TRACKS.....not driver's or announcers....we need businessmen!!!! The game needs to evolve.

First: Make it fun for the crowd so we can reduce the average age from and bring the younger crowd. At the same time you will increase the handle. Take example from Saratoga...OK the track will loose a few hot dog sells but who cares. the crowds will triple. Get the people to bring the coolers and lunches and put the music on!!! let the people have fun....Now we have crowds that averages 70 years old. It has to be a pleasant experience for people to come back.

second : Close all tracks but 5.....Flamboro, Grand river, Georgian, Rideau and Mohawk. (Not Woodbine the fans are 5 miles away from the action, might as well watch it on TV). The other tracks needs to close they are bringing all other tracks down with them!!!! Horsemen stop crying about the closures they can't survive...the handle is not there. Would you invest your own money on those tracks....then why should the taxpayers...

Third: Since less tracks, increase purses to a level where the owners will come back to the game. This will also bring back the breeding Industry that is presently dying. I've never seen a business that does not think about the fan and the the investors. The drivers/trainers took the game over and they think about themselves ONLY!!!! One of the biggest reason the game is dying.

Fourth: Make the same rules and purses for all B tracks. people that cheats and get caught....They are out!!Permanently!! Now it's a joke, the trainer's get caught and they replace their name with a friend's name.

Then get good people to run the tracks, Businessmen!!! Then hopefully we will not need the governement help to have an Industry that we can call OURS!!!

It is soooooo sad to see our game dying.

Mr Irving

how do you expect owners to pay bills with racing only 7 mnths a year ?
are we supposed to uproot our families and go to Yonkers for a couple of months and then maybe Poconos live in caravans ?

Will I have responded to you several times but my comments have never been posted
you have been saying all along that the horsemen don't care about the gamblers but what do you expect them to do ?
the horsemen are producing the product they are not in marketing or accounting, they are shoveling manure and bandaging legs.
the tracks are responsible for everything else, including creating a new fan base that is the partnership between the horsemen and tracks.
the horsemen are willing to do lots of things but they need guidance and there isn't any and I don't mean Anthony .
tracks have the resources the horsemen don't.

Mr.Yamakva

Your ideas may attract the casual fan but they will not attract gamblers. I do not mean this in a disrespectful way but i have zero interest in meeting drivers or trainers or having them sign an autograph for me. I had zero interest in getting a free hot dog or a pop when i used to go to the track, and guess what, the next generation of gamblers feel the same way. Rest assured they are not interested either in free hot dogs or meeting drivers and trainers.

They like myself are interested in gambling on a form of gambling that they have a shot of beating and they know that they have almost no shot of beating the ponies with takeouts in the range of 15 to 35 per cent. The next generation of gamblers is more educated then our generation was because of the internet and they will not put up with the rake the race tracks charge, nor do they care about the expenses the race game has that other forms of gambling don't have. That is the race games problem, not theirs. Combine this with the choices today's gamblers have, back when i was young it was either races or bingo. They will continue to stick to low vig games such as poker or single game sports betting. Until the race game reduces their takeout right across the board to approx 10% in all pools they have no shot of re building the gambling base. Gambling has exploded world wide but yet the next generation of gamblers continues to reject the race game because they see it as being unbeatable. The race game needs to change this perception by competing for business with reduced take out. Nothing else that they do, will make any difference long term with out a competitive take out.

Will has made a lot of sense. While I disagree with some of his points, I most definitely agree that horse racing has done a dreadful job of looking to the future and building a product that the younger generations will buy. While Hanover and Clinton racetracks are fun venues to attend, the betting is abysmal except for feature events such as the Dream of Glory and such. Those two, very well-maintained tracks do their damndest to promote and entice the bettors but the handle is pretty discouraging. Why? For the reasons that Will has spelled out----no chance at a decent payout. It's not like we don't have any competition anymore. It's also true that the CPMA too tightly controls the industry. We have to give the public some pretty darn good reasons to bother to come out to watch or, at very least, to spend their money on racing. To be honest, the OLG has done a real good job of purposely NOT promoting horse racing as compared to their casino and lottery advertising that is plastered all over the media.

As for Mr Hudak and the Conservative Party being our saviour---I'm doubtful. There has been nothing concrete coming from a party that desperately wants to govern but has missed the boat on this one when it comes to attracting support. Sure we have plenty of MPs that have shown great support for our industry but is that just grandstanding? Anthony has a vested interest and is genuine in his efforts to get a seat but unless the party wins, his getting a seat won't help us any. We simply haven't heard a good enough reason to throw our support behind Hudak and company. Besides, the next election will be too late.

As much as I am not a Liberal lover after McGuinty's reign, I really think that our best bet is with getting our message to Ms. Wynne. We need to by-pass the McGuinty-appointed panel and talk to the premier for she holds the cards. And yes, we need to rally together and come up with a presentable plan to sustain ALL racing in Ontario and that includes getting the right people to help us. We can write and whine all we want but action speaks louder and so far, there has been little of that.

"The Meadowlands doesn't bet more because they race less Will, it's because of the competitiveness of the racing."

The shorter season at The Meadowlands forces the trainers to race their horses competitively.There is less time to "pick n choose" when their going to race HARD.Wood/Moh run 12 months of the year roughly 4-5 months longer then Meadowlands.Why you think some races at Wood/Moh it's 2 out,8 in!!!

Move harness racing to Mohawk and reduce the season to 7 months.

Mr. Yamakava
I think we're really on the same side with regard to the issues. The problem is with not getting fans betting. What I am blaming however is the CPMA and other Government bodies for blocking the tracks from trying new things. There are tons of things the Government blocks us from doing that would drive up revenues. Things such as large payout wagering, slot machine styled pari-mutuels, convenient store wagering, app historical race wagering, gambler versus gambler bets, group wagering, HPI leaderboards, for driving up the cost of operations via regulations and for forcing us to locate away from the larger urban areas.
There are lots of solutions and ways to improve our game. Most of the things I mentioned are just categories which have lots of different ways to try them out. The problem is that you can't implement them because of the amount Government is involved.

The business model is backwards & that is why it has failed even with the SARP in place. It was always about more dates....more purse money....nothing about getting people into see the product. Too much product for the demand. Only logical thing to do is scale back & try to rebuild. Not saying completely close tracks but lees dates until you grow a new fan base. There are going to be casualties which is unfortunate, but to make the industry grow you have to start small & grow as you fan base grows. More race dates are not going to do anything but water it down imo. The purse money handed out for tracks like Woodstock & Sudbury did nothing to enhance the industry or it image. If you go to a concert & there's 15 people you are going to have an opinion about the performer without even listening. New people go to a racetrack and see 20-30 disgruntled elderly bettors ...they likely are not coming back!...Image.

We are rehashing a lot of the same arguments and reliving the facts of what has been done to the industry. What actions can we take. Frankly not very much except go where the money is and let the government plan fail. At one point they will start looking so bad (As if GCGC hasnt already made monkeys out of them)that they will address the situation and go back to some sort of SARP-like fix.

In the meantime a lot of good people will have their lives put on hold and even suffer financial ruin. I know someone who has the power to do something. TIM HUDAK. Before you read my next paragraphs, know I gave money to the Conservatives in support because the other two parties are the evil of lessers.

I have been critical of HUDAK in the past. Anthony and I have discussed it a couple of times. The fact is that the Conservative Party has done almost zero in coming out with a plan. Monte has supported us among others but only a few twitters and photo ops. The Conservative White Papers are total fluff that a high school student would be ashamed to submit.

HUDAK can step up or step out. He can submit a plan to the newspapers of exactly what he would do. Get us all involved so its in black and white and make the Liberals and the panel take a hard look and either refute or agree. There will not be an election until the Liberal term is over-NDP make sure of it. So HUDAK should lead from the position of opposition where he is the voice. He spends too much time denouncing the Liberals so he can get his shot instead of being a man of the people for the people. Show the people how you will change things, don't just complain. Rural Ontario needs you, roll up your sleeves. We will support you if you have a plan. You know the panel doesnt have the answer.

Georg Leber-ICR Racing

Alright I'll take up trying to answer your questions...Lets see how I do.
1) I tried to calculate out how much this was going to be when this whole fiasco started. Unfortunately the amount live racing increases slot revenues was far less then the money going into the pools from the slots. My attempt to calculate this was based on comparing racedays with non racedays at tracks. The total increase was about 50M if I remember correctly (about 1.5-2%)The amount offset was pretty much dependent on the level of the purses.
2)Probably because date reduction is the right sizing they are referring to.
3)They will probably only give us enough to placate the media and be on their way.
4) Attendance and wagering has always dropped during the winter. Though the issue here is not the season. The issue is that there is very little to offered in terms of product to increase the fan base.
5)The panel is mostly smoke and mirrors. Any new product or game of chance has to be Federally approved. The CPMA regulates almost any action the tracks could try to take to increase their handle and the Minister of Agriculture(FED) has the powers to personally oversee any proposed type of wager and give it the ok or the no. Typically it has been that the CPMA will not let any large pools be paid out because they view it as lottery like.
Extra Qs)A centralized office is only good for Government run things. What we need is less Government oversight, particularly Federally so that we are free to try new wagers out. Centralization where our tracks our free to try out new wagers would prevent them from organizing their racing events to suit their track. Try imagining a central office running the races in any sort of pattern while still leaving time for Grand River's bouncing pony race. Oversights would happen.
Patricia Martin is close on what she says but the problem is not with the Government not doing stuff. The problem is with what they have done. It's precisely because they know pretty much nothing about horse racing that we need to get them out of the way as much as possible. They always have moved slow and pretty much always in the wrong direction. The issue however is more the CPMA then the OLG.

"4) How do we grow a fan base for our sport to the point it becomes self-sustaining through wagering while slashing race dates? "

Take a look at the dates you have now. You cant bet at Hanover, Dresden, Sarnia, Sudbury or Kawartha. The pools are just too minuscule to lure fans. You really think increasing dates will change that? The markets have shown, the fans just are not interested in wagering on the racing at them locations.

You can race there all you want, it will not change the situation. Take note, the runners, and Meadowlands.... reduced dates, and the wagering has gone up.

Mr McDonald, while I feel sorry that people have to change lifestyles, the reality is, that this grew FAR too fast, and depended on other people FAR too much. There has to be a balance between a losing business model, and the ones that are able to make it. You can't possibly expect the government to keep THIS many tracks open, just so you have a place to race.

There is more harness tracks in Ontario.... than California, Florida and New York, COMBINED !!! Each of those states, has more people than Ontario. There has to be a point where the harness people realize, there simply is too many tracks, the wagering money is spread FAR too thin, to the point, it makes the small tracks not worth looking at from a gambler's perspective.

Ask yourself this..... if you went to Hanover, and wanted to make a $50win wager, what affect would you have on the pool? You would crush it, and make your horse less than even money. The fans of that, would struggle to make $100. Owner of the horse that finishes 4th, gets that much. Simply put, you are not going to get fans betting money, when the possibility of a big pay day... is not there. Take a look at the results of either Fort Erie on a Monday or Woodbine on a Friday or Wednesday night, they have winning tickets on triactors and supers all night long that pay 4 figures. Why? Because they run less.

There is no way around it, there is too much racing for the amount of wagering going on in the province. You have NO shot at sustaining a fraction of the tracks that you do with the model as it is.

I would love for a way to work it out, but you have to realize, for the bettors, 70% of the racing in this province, is not bettable for either one of 2 reasons, 1) the pools are too small 2) too many races with less than even money horses.

I've begged you for months to lead this parade correctly, like the gentleman in NJ is doing with Meadowlands, but it appears that blaming others and wanting others to fix it, is your method.

I PRAY SC prints this reply.

Sad, because you have wasted as much time waiting for them, and not getting the non-government people together, as the government has not coming up with a plan.

Do the horseman have a VIABLE plan that is agreed on by the vast majority of you that you can take to the government? No.

I hear what you are saying, sadly though the time to do this was when there was an unlimited supply of money while SARP was in place. There was no sense of urgency the, it was all about purse money. So it's hard to leave the past in the past when a lot of people(mainly fans) were saying more money needed to be spent to create a "NEW" fan base instead of racing in front of empty grandstands for what were ridiculous amounts considering the amount wagered!

I do not know what the industry has available now to promote itself to a new generation, but to continue to race without new fans are going to shut down tracks permanently. One thing to do is have shorter meets & spend more on promoting than ever before. Try to get takeout's lowered at all tracks offer rebates on a scale of the amount a person wagers & whether it's live at the track or online. Have promotions that will get people to the track & bring them back. Not hats or t-shirts that is just a waste of money imo. Give them an opportunity to win a big prize like...100k...a car....a cruise..... I'm not saying make it easy, but it will at least draw attention.

It really is moving way too slow! I'm sickened by the whole turn of events.

I am not disagreeing 100% with what you say. However, I still don't know who is going to take charge, who is going to make the ORC and Racing Panel get busy and do SOMETHING. The industry is already fragmented, has been for years. How can we be responsive to the client base when we have to work with tack and government officials who don't give a damn about horse racing? How do we get opposition parties to call an election when they aren't ready? I have never been one to give up without a fight, However, there is no one allowing me or the others who care, put up a fight.

You hit the nail, right on the head Anthony.