To even compare any horse to another is totally crazy... They are from completely era's. The Beach is the best horse many people will ever see in there life time. Where as Bret Hanover is the best others would have ever seen. Times change and so has horse racing. To try and deterime which horse is the best of all time is just a matter of opinion. It comes down to nothing more then how the horse made you feel as you watched it race. I never got the chance to see some of the greatest horses race, Niatross, Bret Hanover, but i did see the Beach as often as possible, And must say the joy i got from watching a horse with that much ablilty and desire still gives me goose bumps to think about. Saying that I would have to say that he is my own personal Greatest horse ever to wear a harness. Thank you Beach for bringing my love of horse's back to life.

Sorry, my mistake. Now that I stop and think about it, I believe the horse was by Direct Scooter but he was off Nan Cam and that would make him a half brother to Cam Fella. But I can't recall his name. I don't have a Sires and Dams book, so this is all from memory and well it's not getting any younger or clearer.

Ann, I don't think you can blame Lou Gaudi for "Nehi's" inability to become the super sire Cam Fella or Meadow Skipper or Albatross or Abercrombie or Direct Scooter became. Look at any pedigree today and the studs I've mentioned are prevalent in them all, where as Niatross not so much. No sons carried on his legacy as a stallion because he doesn't have a legacy. LBJ winners or not.

The proof is in the pudding or should I say the "Pedigree." That's the way I see it. But it's like Dean said, Niatross isn't going to race against SBSW but the Beach will likely cover some mares off of the same maternal lines that Niatross was given the chance to produce from and I'm thinking the Beach, will far exceed Niatrosses accomplishments in the stud barn, as well, if not better, than he did on the racetrack.

Ann I love your imaginary line up for the Free For All but I think you need to add Genghis Kaun to the mix, just to get that front end speed cooking.

On another note Jeff. The term "Get or get" is used in agriculture circles to refer to a sires off spring. Point in note, "And if the Beach doesn't put better "get" on the track after he goes to stud,"

Thanks.

As Dean said, it is difficult to compare horses who have never raced each other. And there is no right in wrong. I don't think money is an accurate standard of greatness. Back in Bret's day, a race for $200,000 was rare, if not unheard of. Now many sire stake finals go for close to that. $500,000 or more races on the Grand Circuit are rather common place. In an ideal world, when you see that Bret Hanover actually made $922,616 it would be adjusted to show the inflation rate, and what those dollars would amount to in 2008.

Nor is "speed." I watched Albatross race many times and the announcers were having seizures about a "blazing" quarter of 28 and change. Ditto when Abercrombie set the World Record for 4 year olds at The Meadowlands. Now if a 2 year old of either gate can't go a last quarter in 28, chances are they are turned out "to grow and mature" or sold if the owner only races Grand Circuit. There have been so many changes in harness racing and most for the better: better surfaces and race bikes, lighter equipment, evolvement of the breed, knowledge of equine nutrition, increased knowledge of lameness and treating problems. "Speed" has also increased in direct proportion with the use of catch drivers. If you don't have to live with the results of your drive on Monday morning, it's fairly easy to go to the 1/2 in :53 and the 3/4 in 1:20 or 1:21 Saturday night. Another change I don't think is necessarily for the betterment of the sport is the almost total elimination of heat racing. Standardbreds are known as a hearty, versatile breed and heat racing suited them well and showed off their capabilities. It also eliminated a lot of the "luck factor." What we have now is many--not all, mind you---owners who want a horse bred for as much speed as they can get, as early as possible. Get an early return on their yearling investment. (If any proof of this is needed, look at the price of Revenue S yearlings this year.) In an attempt to attract owners, many breeders---again--not all---are now turning out Thoroughbred hot house type flowers....a little adversity and they are injured and for all intents and purposes they are done!

I've been hooked on harness racing since the early 60's. I've evaluated what I consider the great ones I've seen by how tough I thought they were/are. Here's the list of pacers I'd like to see face the starter in a no holds barred, knock down, drag out FFA Pace. (They are in no particular order!)
1) Meadow Skipper
Took a mark of 1:55.1 and made $428,000 when he had a double handicap: the scarcity of large race tracks and the driving "skills" of Earle Avery.
2) Countess Adios
Just how tough was this filly??? Measdow Skipper's big sister reeled off 17 wins at 2; at 3 she won 20 of 22 starts, beat the boys in 2 legs of the Triple Crown, and since she wasn't eligible to The Jug, she turned in a world record performance on Jug Day as part of the under card. Did I mention she did all this free legged????? Delvin Miller thought this mare could trot a little bit...turned her front shoes around at age 6 and she won on the trot in 2:01 and change, giving her the World Record for an aged double gaited mare.
3) Bret Hanover
68 starts in a 3 year career with 62 wins and never finished worse than third. Ducked no one, would bow in the winner's circle and his connections made no excuses when he was defeated. Addicted to Brach's Starlight Mints; would spit out imitations!
4) Artsplace
Seeing the tapes of his 2 year old Breeder's Crown win still gives me goose bumps. Wonder how fast he could have gone that night under perfect conditions....after a "disappointing" 3 year old season (if you can call wining 10 out of 18, a mark of 1:50 and change and $972,000 in the bank "disappointing") he came back to win all 16 starts at 4.
5) Niatross
"Nehi" was iron tough. What can I possibly say that hasn't already been said? One of the other posters knocked Niatross's stud career. He stood his first two seasons at Castleton in Kentucky, and was then moved to Castleton in NY. He produced LBJ winners from his first 2 crops. Name another horse that has done that....The "old wives" tale is that you don't move a stallion.
6) Nihilator
Won 35 out of 38 and finished off the board just once. His dual with Dragon's Lair in the 2 year old Breeder's Crown final was one of the best races I've ever seen.
7) Rambling Willie
Was stabled next to me up at Windsor so I got to see a bit of his personality first hand---also how bad his front tires were. But he raced most every week and racked up 128 victories. I believe he also holds the record for most wins faster than 2:00 with 79.
8) Matt's Scooter
This horse in full stride was something to see--and something you wouldn't forget. Broke Niatross's speed record and was targeted as a 4 year old--the horse people wanted to beat. Won 23 out of 30 at 4, despite many "less than perfect trips."
9) Cam Fella
"The Pacing Machine." Won 61 of 80 starts. Holds the modern record for most victories in a row with 28. Rarely won by much but always went to the well, dug deep, found a way to win. Many felt he was at a disadvantage having trainer Pat Crowe in the bike.
10) Albatross
World Champion at 2, 3 and 4. Added entertainment value for the infighting between syndicate members, leading to his resyndication and stud career at Hanover Shoe. (Was originally slated for Lana Lobell.)
AE1) Somewbeachsomewhere
I have my flame suit on, so fire away! He appears to be heads and shoulders above the rest. The one time he was challenged he was defeated. In my humble opinion, skipping the Jug hurt.

Hate to bust your bubble Dean but Niatross and the Beach aren't even comparable as race horses and if the Beach doesn't put more and better on the track after he goes to stud than Niatross did, he'll be standing stud down east at McGrath's car lot by the time the fifth crop hits the ground.

Niatross wasn't a good stallion. He was off a common mare that produced nothing other than him. My goodness Niatross's Direct Scooter half-brother kicked around Orangeville Raceway racing in 1500 dollar claimers for years.

At least the Beach has a pedigree. His third dam The Booger Lady was producing 1:49 horses 15 years ago. Comparing Niatross to the Beach is like putting Maxwell Smart in the ring with the Incredible Hulk. The Beach is in a class of his own. He is the Zeus of the pacing world and some day he will produce Hercules.

What was then? No sires stakes racing, you had to race the Grand Circuit, all over the country, all types and size tracks. Trainers didnt pick their spots, so if you were the best week after week you earned it.

I thought Niatross and Bret Hanover were the best 3 year old colts I ever saw. Meadow Skipper and Overtrick's 3 year old season probably had the most talented deep group of 3 year olds that i recall. I know the jug of that year contained a bunch of fine colts.

Money earned cannot be a sign of greatness... put todays purse values on to the cards of past greats , you might be surprised who is on ''top'' - speed is self contained in each era. The flats have a beyers figure that gives a numerical value to the speed of the race compared to others in the class of the race. we dont have the ultimate calculation, so don't belittle the times of generations past. They were cheered by many more fans, they thrilled those fans w/ displays of guts , heart and stamina.... values that are only in the minds of the viewers.

Today's horses race faster times, but greatness is more than a time/ jk